Discussion with dean's office catholic theology department faculty Erfurt University of the university

Michael Gabel

"In the case of theology we have three actors: state, church and theology as a science..."

Gabel Michael - Catholic Theological Faculty, University of Erfurt (Germany). michael.gabel@uni-erfurt.de

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Keywords: theology, science, university, academic liberty, Church and State, State-Church law, Fakultättentag, AKAST.

How you came in theology? You because grown up in GDR...

Michael Gabel: I came to theology through the theses of Marxism-Leninism, which I considered false. I needed clarity, especially on the question of the relationship between faith and the natural sciences. The answer offered by the Communists - either faith or science - did not satisfy me.

M. Gabel "In the case of theology, we have three participants: the state, churches and theology as a science..." (interview) / / State, religion, Church in Russia and abroad. 2016. N 3. pp. 266-284.

Gabel, Michael (2016) "In the case of theology we have three actors: state, church and theology as a science..." (interview), Gosudarstvo, religiia, tserkov' v Rossii i za rubezhom 34(3): 266-284.

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At you in school were lessons religions?

No. There were religious lessons only in the parish, but the priest who taught us started each lesson by asking who had any attacks on faith and the church at school. And we were learning how to respond to such attacks, so these were real lessons in apologetics. It was very interesting.

And you decided to study theology?

In the GDR, there was only one place for young people who wanted to become priests: the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology in Erfurt. I decided to go there and I don't regret it.

That there is you studied it theology in university?

No, the Higher School of Philosophy and Theology was not recognized by the state and was not included in the list of higher educational institutions of the GDR. And the academic degrees that were awarded there did not officially exist. However, there was a kind of practical modus vivendi in relation to this school: local state institutions congratulated our professors on their birthdays, and even the authorities entered a doctorate degree in my identity card.1 That is, they simply did things that had no legal basis. This school received state recognition only after the peaceful revolution of 1989, sometime in June 1990. By that time, the High School had been in existence for almost forty years and had trained almost a thousand priests.

It turns out, what in GDRs at protestants were your own theological issues faculties by universities, but at catholics no?

The evangelical churches had both: state faculties that had existed for several centuries, and higher church schools that were not recognized by the state, like ours. With these-

1. In Germany, a doctorate degree recognized by the State is entered in the identity card and becomes actually part of the surname of its bearer.

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we have maintained a close relationship with the latter. Protestant students came to study with us, for example, for a semester. There was active communication between Catholic and evangelical professors (this did not apply to state faculties, since it was not clear to what extent they were influenced by communist ideology). Therefore, I am well aware of the situation of a church higher education institution that is not recognized by the state. Being left to its own devices, such a school does not have the opportunity to be in live communication with other sciences and their institutions, which means that such schools are cooked in their own juice. On the other hand, this isolation led to the fact that we were taught the traditional educational canon of Western Europe, so that we did not fall into the harness of Marxism-Leninism.

What means "traditional educational canon"?

It includes a complete set of sources of Greek and Latin philosophy, as well as a complete set of theological sciences. It was quite an adventure to bring to East Germany the theological books published in the West, which contained materials on church Tradition and sources of faith. That is, we tried to make our education the same as it was in the West, despite the fact that we were a purely ecclesiastical institution, devoid of living communication even with Rome. This experience served me well in the united Germany. In 2009-2010, the Council for Science, an advisory body made up of scientists and politicians who deal with issues of public education at the highest level, discussed whether theology had a place at the university and whether it would not be better to study it within the walls of the church. And then I was able to demonstrate that theology would be impoverished if it was deprived of live communication with other sciences. Moreover, if theology does not have a critical interlocutor, it will run the risk of ideological narrowing. If you want theology to remain a critical thinker , both for yourself and for other sciences, it must be present at the university.

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But why state must this want to? What university name theology gives to the state?

I do not accept the phrase "university theology". The question is, what is the use of the state if theology is studied at the university, and not somewhere else?

Not contradicts whether similar performance of the question secular by character university?

To contrast the state and education, on the one hand, and theology and religion, on the other, is a false alternative, which suggests that theology at the university and religion at school do not contribute to education and even, on the contrary, endanger it. This is incorrect! To begin with, the state does not have a monopoly on education, because, philosophically speaking, education is multidimensional. It includes - along with technical and natural science education-cultural and spiritual, including religious and theological education. Such philosophers as Max Scheler and, much later, Jurgen Habermas spoke strongly about the multidimensional nature of education. The Frankfurt Marxist School also opposed the rejection of multidimensional education in favor of purely natural science and technical education. Such a refusal would mean the impoverishment of education as such.

There can be two options here. According to one position, religious education endangers education as such, and therefore its supporters seek to abolish or even completely destroy religious education. According to another, less radical view, religious education should at least be kept away from public education, since religion is a "private matter." We need to conduct principled discussions on this issue. If education is multidimensional, then it also has a religious component. The German state - in a bloody, painful process that has dragged on for centuries-has fully realized that it cannot have a monopoly on education.

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But at states there is monopoly on financing state-owned enterprise educational institutions.

Why the State should finance religious education is a separate issue. But the state has realized that religion cannot be left to itself. This awareness came during the Thirty Years ' War, and it was only reinforced during the Weimar Republic, and after the Second World War, by the West German State. At the same time, the state has realized that it cannot engage in religious education, and therefore this education should be the responsibility of the churches themselves. The German version is that the state shows its interest in religious education not through its organization, but through freeing up space for religious institutions themselves to engage in it. In addition, it creates conditions for this, including through funding.

If education multidimensional and religious information the component - integral part part educational institutions, that then physicists, medical professionals and other - all must receive some kind of minimum value theological education education. But this but no in Germany...

This is not the case. But they might start to get interested in such questions. For the university is a universitas litterarum, that is, a place where people work together in the sciences. As a theologian, I would not take the liberty of studying physics. And that's why I don't want a physicist to study theology. But we can be under the same roof and do science together. Each one has its own.

Different faculties simply co-exist in the university, and the community, cooperation, and dialogue of sciences are the business of professors. Such cooperation takes place, for example, in the field of ethics. Doctors have already realized that there is not enough technical knowledge in the field of specific treatment methods, but it is also necessary to take into account how a particular medical action relates to human dignity. And this is no longer a medical issue, but an ethical one. And so it becomes obvious that the philosophical, ethical and religious dimensions of education are absolutely necessary,

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because technical sciences alone cannot solve ethical issues. At the same time, a prerequisite should be a free exchange of opinions, a scientific discussion that does not experience any pressure from any institutions.

A university is the right place for theology, also in the sense of religious education. When in Germany there was a discussion about theology at the university, which I mentioned above, its outcome was unclear. But then another factor was realized, which is now more than relevant: Muslims and their approach to religion. It became clear that the issue of the Muslim presence could not be resolved on a purely political level. And then they remembered how it was with Christian theology, and began to apply this experience to Muslims and their religious education.

Means, state, assuming theology in university, how would holds his in rein in, to it not accumulated politically dangerous capacity building, if his provide by yourself for yourself?

No, it's too easy. Here we need to talk about the relations between the state and the university. After all, it is not the state that creates a university and deals with it. The state finances the university, which is created and maintained by the scientific community itself. The same applies to churches and ecclesiastical institutions of higher education. If we are talking about theology as a science, then we must give theologians as scientists the opportunity to go about their work. After all, it is not the state that deals with physics, but physicists, for whom the state must create an organizational framework. And this applies to all sciences. Of course, there is a certain tension here, but it exists between any science and the organizational framework set by the state.

The university is something independent, autonomous, that is, a self-governing institution. In the Middle Ages, it was free from state regulations, which was the very idea of the university. This changed in Modern times, particularly after the Reformation. And now we are talking about a very fragile coexistence of all participants in the process. In the case of theology, we have three actors: the state, the churches, and theology as a science. In other fields - physics, chemistry, and so on. - also three or even

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four participants: the state, science itself, partly churches (where ethical issues are concerned) , and the economy. Science is as free as it makes itself. But at the same time, she constantly feels that everyone has their own interests and everyone is trying to influence something.

But how church understands your role on theologian faculty? You, for example, - priest.

It doesn't matter.

But this not can not play roles... At you but there is commitments by the relationship to churches?

Every theologian has similar obligations, namely, in relation to the sources of faith. The Council for Science, in its 2010 document, stated that theology is a science like all others, and therefore it should be guided by its fundamental documents.

But state because not can check similar products things.

Wait with the state. Theology has obligations to its fundamental documents, but-in a scientific way, that is, methodically reflecting. This means that I can't just say something because it's written in the Bible, or because Basil the Great said it. I must demonstrate , through a variety of methods that can be applied , how a particular biblical text came to be shaped and how it can be interpreted today. After all, what are the fundamental documents of faith? For the Catholic Church , this is Holy Scripture, or the Revelation of God in Jesus Christ recorded in Holy Scripture, considered as the living "You". And this can already be interpreted. In Catholic theology, Tradition is associated with the Magisterium of the Church, that is, with the holy Fathers, councils, relevant decrees, and doctrinal documents of popes and other bishops. The internal discourse of theologians also plays a special role. If, say, I take St. Basil the Great,

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Then I need to examine how he justified his opinion in interpreting the Holy Scriptures, what kind of dialogue he was in with the holy fathers of his time, how his words were understood in the course of church history, what schools and how exactly they were referred to, and so on. In other words, it is a science.

Really in this one in this case you not come to that but conclusions, to which one came Protestants? Orthodox people said whether would, what historical and critical review method can to start very far away...

The historical-critical method is one of the scientific methods that must be combined with other methods. For example, among young exegetes, the question of the canonical method is now being raised again, that is, to consider the Bible as a single whole, where everything is connected with each other. On the other hand, I read sources of faith analytically to better understand them, and this can be called the analytical method. But that's only half the work, because the other half is synthesis. You can't take a thing apart and leave all the parts lying separately - they need to be put back together again. And this is one of the tasks of theology.

Orthodox people said would, what such way theology exposed to total rationalization.

I understand very well what our Orthodox colleagues mean. But there's a mix of different things going on here. Reason, rationality, and science are one thing, but rationalization is another. A long discussion has shown that rationality must necessarily be supplemented by something that relates to the realm of feelings. Max Scheler referred to Pascal, who spoke of the ordre du coeur, that is, the "rank of the heart", which complements the "rank of the mind". This is exactly what I meant when I spoke about the different dimensions of education. If I reduce education only to technical rationality, and then build theology on this model, then I will destroy both. For me, the question is posed like this: how is rationality possible that includes the emotional side? And this is something that we can probably think about together with the great Russian spiritual tradition.

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By committing to use it to sources of faith, not leaving whether you that the most the soil science?

Turning to the sources of faith is not a way out of science at all! This is a separate scientific process. It probably makes sense to explain the whole model as I see it. The state is aware of the multidimensional nature of education, but it is unable to implement its various dimensions. Each dimension has its own scientific forms. As far as theology is concerned, the educational framework is set by both the State and the Church. How is the curriculum created at the Catholic Faculty of Theology? First, the orientation to the sources of faith is subject to methodical reflection in a dialogue with other sciences. Since 1965, the decisions of the Second Vatican Council have been used as prescriptions for Catholic theology, on the basis of which the methods of working in theology were clarified in the Apostolic Constitution Sapientia christiana (1979) with specific recommendations in the field of theological education.

This really for Catholic churches in everyone the world?

Yes, all over the world. Second step: episcopal conferences in each individual country - together with the Vatican Congregation for Catholic Education-develop a kind of additional specification for each individual language space. This, in turn, is confirmed by both parties-the state and the church - and gets the status of law. For example, in 1983, the German Bishops ' Conference specified Catholic theological education for Germany, and the relevant documents are regularly updated. In Germany, the so-called "Ecclesiastical Requirements for the Study of Catholic Theology"2 apply, and the last update of this document, undertaken in connection with the Bologna process, took place in 2006. Theologians participated in the drafting of the "Ecclesiastical Requirements", and the German Episcopal Conference, in turn, submitted this document for consideration by the Congregation for Education in Rome. Therefore, the one who studies Catholic be in Germany-

2. "Kirchlichen Anforderungen für das Studium der katholischen Theologie".

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The state's work on these principles will be recognized by the Catholic theologian all over the world. At the same time, we need to constantly make sure that these agreements really work.

Who in this must make sure?

All participants in the process. Based on "Ecclesiastical Requirements", each Catholic faculty forms its own curriculum for full-time theological education. 3 At the same time, the German Episcopal Conference wants each faculty to still have some special features, that is, to have a lively diversity. Here we are dealing with the most complex and subtle mechanism for reaching agreements that connect each educational institution with the Universal Church.

Who controls these processes?

A number of institutions. In addition to church instances, these are state instances. Germany is a member of the Bologna process (as is Russia, and, by the way, the Vatican). Decisions taken in the framework of the Bologna process are binding on both churches and States. And since issues related to the life of universities in Germany are not the business of the central government, but of individual federal states, this leads to the fact that the highest recommendations for universities on the part of the state are adopted by the Conference of Ministers of Culture, whose decisions are called "General Instructions for the Federal States"4. Such "General Guidelines" have been in force since 2007, but do not affect the content of the educational process: they set out formal legal norms for teaching and learning at the university.

The "general guidelines" also apply to theology, but take into account its specific features, which were also determined during the negotiation process with the participation of representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church.

3. "Full-time theological education" is a term that means an education that qualifies for ordination to holy orders and emphasizes the difference from "incomplete" theological education, that is, from a bachelor's degree, master's degree, or from pedagogical theological education. All students in these majors study - in addition to theology - a second subject. Hence the concepts of "full" and "incomplete" theological education.

4. "Ländergemeinsame Eckpunkte".

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Conferences of Ministers of Culture, the Catholic Episcopal Conference, Protestant churches, and Catholic and Protestant professors of theology. That is, in the special case of theology, a double negotiation process is required to agree on the framework set by the churches and the state.

In than they consist of features theology department educational institutions?

The Bologna process involves consistent education with bachelor's and master's degrees. For various reasons, both churches have made it clear that for them, basic theological education cannot be built in the form of a three-year bachelor's degree and a two-year master's degree, but requires a full five-year basic education. The state authorities took this fact into account in the "General Instructions" as a feature of theological education.

The agreements between the State and the churches show that there is no "university theology "as opposed to"church theology". At the same time," theology at university " is not the only opportunity to get a theological education. In Germany, it can also be obtained at ecclesiastical higher education institutions, which, however, are subject to the same double regulation by the churches and the state, because ecclesiastical schools are interested in state recognition.

That there is and here works logic state-ecclesiastical agreements...

Of course! As well as the logic of the Bologna process. This means that any religious community that seeks state recognition of its higher education institutions must fulfill all the necessary conditions. But the state, in turn, is forced to take into account the church's peculiarities. A similar process of mutual agreements has now begun with Muslims, although it is much more difficult than with churches.

5. The Catholic Church and the Evangelical Church of Germany.

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What means "run conditions"? With which of the moment they considered completed? Because accomplishment or failure to comply - case expert reviews by themselves theologians. And state can say: "Naturally, theologians interested in volume, to to write to myself positive conclusion".

Here comes the third element provided for in the " General Guidelines "and also required by the Congregation for Education in Rome: accreditation of the specialty" theology " and its evaluation - quality control. Previously, before the Bologna process, such a state audit was conducted by a justiciar-an authorized representative of the Ministry of Science.

But he must was investigate in theology?

It should not, because the state structure will never resort to arguments that affect the content of the subject. Such things theologians should find out for themselves. The state evaluates only the formal side. But the clarification of issues related to the content of the subject must also take place according to certain rules that are approved by the state. In this situation, the church authority cannot simply say:"We don't like this theologian, let him no longer teach." If the church authority makes a negative judgment, then it is obliged to justify it and demonstrate that the exception occurs according to the accepted rules. We need expert opinions - not only from the church's Teaching staff, but also from representatives of theological science. It is the responsibility of the ruling bishop to issue a document of the church's consent for a particular professor to fill this vacancy, as well as to check whether the views of this professor correspond to the fundamentals of the faith. However, the bishop must justify his opinion by ordering expert opinions. In other words, theology as a free science necessarily participates in the process of reaching appropriate agreements. The crucial point that is important to us here is the freedom of science! That's what it's all about.

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Theology how free, self-organizing company science... But in than consists freedom science?

It is expressed in three sovereign acts.

The first is the choice of professors. The commission for filling vacant professorships, consisting of all university classes-professors, assistants, students-selects several candidates from a large number of applications and makes a so-called "list". This list is considered first by the faculty council, and then by the university Senate, which includes representatives of all disciplines, which makes a decision, after which the rector or president sends an invitation to the candidate to fill the vacancy. This also applies to professors of theology, although in this case the rector must obtain the consent of the bishop. If the candidate has not previously been a professor, the bishop should request expert theological opinions concerning the candidate and also send a request to the Congregation for Education in Rome. This confirms the authority of a particular professor of Catholic theology on the part of the Universal Church. But this professor is chosen not by the church or the bishop, but by the scientists themselves.

The second sovereign act of academic self-organization consists in awarding academic degrees - at the end of studies, in the case of defending a doctoral dissertation, and in the case of habilitation. This is also done by the community of theologians themselves, guided by purely scientific criteria. Church participation in this case does not consist in making a judgment about the candidate's scientific competence, but in allowing the candidate to consider his dissertation research.

The third sovereign act is the evaluation of the results of scientific research. There is a tension between the natural sciences and the humanities. In the natural sciences, the most important thing is the number of articles and citations. In the humanities, including theology, this is not enough: we insist on peer review, that is, on positive assessments of research by recognized scientists.

Theologians reproach in volume, what object their research projects unverifying...

This is how natural scientists think. Such a discussion seems old - fashioned to me- it's a primitive dialectic.-

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Russian materialism! If we talk about reality in terms of "what can I measure, weigh, photograph", then half of a person's life is not photographed! Reality is multidimensional, so education should also be multidimensional. It all depends on the idea of what education is.

And, probably, from views about a person...

Let's put it this way: the" You " in front of which a person sees himself, the connection of a person with God - I can't measure it, weigh it, but I can empirically show how people believe in God, what factors matter to them in this case. This is where theological methods - hermeneutical, including historical-critical-begin. In other words, it is necessary to develop and develop appropriate forms of science for different dimensions of education. Why does the state allow itself the expensive pleasure of funding theological faculties? To make churches more friendly? No! The state does not want and should not pay for the church. By funding theological faculties, it does not pay for the church - it pays for science.

And by this it finances preparation church services frames...

But at the same time, the state finances training of personnel for legal services, training of doctors for hospitals. Each science prepares its staff. A priest is also a person who does something that is important to people. Like a physicist, for example.

Means, theology serves...

Science! It may be asked: how does theology as a science relate to other sciences? I would answer this: life shows that technical sciences cannot be sciences in themselves. For example, because the results of scientific research sometimes lead to terrible consequences. These consequences need to be discussed, but the physicist is not in a position to evaluate such consequences - this can only be done from the point of view of ethics or moral theology. The sciences criticize each other, and this is necessary in order for the sciences to develop for the benefit of man.

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Of course, today it is necessary to show a certain audacity to say :" And that is why they need theology." Why is it needed? All sciences consider a person as a humanum, that is, they look at a person as a generally accepted quantity, on which they orient their activities. This is correct, but it is not enough. In addition to the abstract "humanity", the subject of science should also be each specific person. There was a debate about this in medicine after 1920, when it was realized that anthropological medicine was needed, which considers a person not only as a gallbladder, or kidney, or brain, but as a specific person who suffers. And this requires theology, because the uniqueness of each individual person can only be justified if we accept the thesis: God wants this person to be.

To this it worked, need, to this thesis form shared everything...

You don't have to want everything at once. To begin with, it would be good for other sciences to say: yes, no human being can be sacrificed to scientific knowledge. This is a boundary that no science should cross, because otherwise it will be dehumanized. A strong argument in favor of the existence of theology as a science is its intercession for a particular person as the boundary of any scientific activities.

Well, this still very specific information ethical policy benefit theology. But which meaning has finding out, coming from whether Holy Spirit from My father or from My father and My son? With which stati to the state pay behind that, to theologians - for example, orthodox people and Catholics - we argued about a filioque? This rather complicated matter...

Of course, this is a complex matter! And it is a challenge for theology to explain the meaning of such disputes. In this case, it will not get any help from the state, but theology cannot leave the church to answer this question either. If we talk about Germany, then after the Reformation we have at least two confessional theologies. One might expect that by doing so,

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theology has come to an end, but in fact it has provided a breakthrough to new horizons.

You not you see in protestant traditions competition for catholic theology?

Competition in the good sense of the word - yes! The Protestant position is sola gratia, " only grace." According to the Catholic position, a person should co-work with grace. These are two positions, neither of which can be objected to, and therefore - with all the regret for the split-there are probably grounds for the existence of different confessional approaches. Perhaps the filioque is a similar argument, which indicates that each position contains something important, that each says something that the other does not say. We will never and nowhere find a human relationship in which one position completely covers everything and everything. To take into account all aspects of reality, we need articulation of different positions. At the same time, I would prefer to resolve such disputes at the scientific level, rather than at the political level, and even more so not at the church-political level.

Going back to university card to the policy: you were chairman "Facultetentaga". What this this?

A facultantag is a union of specific faculties from different universities. There are about 15 such unions: four engineering unions, two mathematical and natural science unions, two theological unions-Catholic and Protestant, faculty members of teachers, doctors, veterinarians, and so on. Each faculty sends representatives to the meetings of its own faculty tag. Both of the University's theological faculties include both public university faculties and higher church schools. Theologians, however, also have institutes, small educational institutions that do not form a separate faculty, but are part of the Faculty of Philosophy.6 The institutes cooperate and send a common representative to the faculty of tag. All inter-faculty unions, in turn, form a Common faculty tag, consisting of representatives of all departments.

6. The Faculty of Philosophy in Germany includes not only philosophy, but also history, philology, sociology, pedagogy, political science, sports and other disciplines.

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faculty of tags. When there is joint work, the special features of the concept of theological faculties are treated with understanding by other disciplines, because other disciplines also have their own special needs and interests that compete with other sciences. Therefore, to think that by destroying theology, you can save money is a complete illusion.

So because may destroy and musicology, and philology...

So that's what's happening! And this is another argument in favor of the fact that the university needs theology. This can be seen from the example of small disciplines: many universities are making cuts to save money. Since each federal state of Germany decides for itself, no one worries about anything: after all, there are small subjects in universities in other federal states... And suddenly it turns out, for example, that we lack specialists in orientalism, there are no people who can explain what the culture of Muslim countries is. Although earlier we were masters in understanding the East. After saving a couple of million dollars, we are now paying billions for the damage caused by such policies... Those who today - against the backdrop of global migration and the refugee movement - say that we don't need theology are playing with fire.

On the other hand, it means that theology has a huge responsibility. We can't all hide behind our desks - we need to do our best to keep the dialogue going. When the Year of Humanities 7 was being held in Germany, I was asked to comment on the merits of theology compared to other humanities. And I said: no, as a theologian, I believe that my vocation is to speak about what we, representatives of the humanities, stand for together. Humanities is the art of discernment, which consists in the ability to think critically.

You also you are chairman "Agencies by providing characteristics and by accreditations canonical ones specialties in Germany" (AKAST). What this this?

7. 2007.

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There are six or seven accreditation agencies in Germany that either accredit all specialties or only some, like AKAST. If you go to the AKAST website, you will see how each theological department is organized. Why do you need this agency? All over the world, the Holy See agency in Rome is responsible for evaluating Catholic theological education, but since each country has its own legal situation, so-called national articulations are needed. In Germany, there is a special state-church law. As already mentioned, the state creates conditions for theological education, but attracts churches to it. In this sense, AKAST operates under the order of the Church and legal state recognition. That is, it is a state-church institution. In our work, we must always make sure that our decisions, on the one hand, comply with state regulations, and, on the other hand, do not conflict with church regulations. And we do this by taking as a basis the above - mentioned documents: state - "General instructions" and church - "Church requirements".

But how This is the case case at Protestants?

They do not have their own church agencies, because they are subject to different state-church law, and evangelical faculties cooperate with different agencies. At the same time, evangelical churches have the right of veto in matters related to the full course of theology, that is, church interests are also taken into account there.

So way, presence theology department in university not allows him "brew in own juice"...

The danger of isolation threatens not only theology, but any science! This is where academic self-governance helps, where professors meet with each other within the university, because they are members of the same governing bodies (for example, the Senate consists of deans of all faculties).

8. www.akast.info

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I would like to highlight two things here: the first concerns the content, and the second concerns the very concept of education. The question is not "do we need religion", but "what is education". Theology is present where the multidimensional nature of education is recognized. And only then are we talking about institutions related to theological education. We have three of them - science itself, the state and the church, and they cooperate with each other. But it is fundamentally important that theology is a science, along with other sciences, and that it seeks to contribute to universal human education. And to fulfill this task, theological science has the authority of both the church and the state.

I talked to you Anna Briskin-Muller

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